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Kick-starting a virtual world - problem analysis/ideas/suggestions/your needs

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lex4art, May 13, 2017.

  1. Moonrise Azalee

    Moonrise Azalee New Member

    I know for myself I'm very happy with the improved free home locations available. 'Create room' can be a bit confusing when in actuality you get a house, patio and yard :D Maybe a Create my Space would be better. But I'm just one of those sorts who thinks too much about simple things until Im confused by it lol.
    For myself the only thing I feel is missing is the ability to remove the home there, place a new one, remove the trees, replace with others - done within the viewer and not from unity.
    I know there are some fully free to use OARs out, and really if there were a selection of 5 different starter spaces, home with yard, and in the inventory, some of the items that can be placed in that yard (selection of foliage, some basic furniture ) I think it would be a great start. As more creators come in, and I REALLY do believe they will, having some more homes in the market to pick - the ability to remove the one that came with the space, and put the new home down, move stuff around will be great.
    If I do understand correctly, these are things that are already being talked about and I think that is pretty awesome.
    I have always loved video games where I could have a home space, and most often I would play games that specifically allowed that. It allows for the immersiveness I crave in virtual worlds.
    In the year I've been here I have seen amazing changes and improvements and am really glad to see the progression. Awesome job!

    (and not to siderail but Ive been in Sansar and it is useless to me. I dont plan on purchasing a HMD, nor the other gadgets that are necessary to interact in Sansar. I love to play games but don't shut out the rest of my family while doing so. Still like to see the silly dog come up for pets and be able to answer questions for the kids. Sansar freezes my comp and kills it, unless im in my own 'experience' i created which is just a landmas and some trees. I have heard from some who are using the HMD that the framerate drop has been so bad in sansar that they cant use their device due to the motionsickness the framerate is causing )
     
  2. Lex4art

    Lex4art Member

    Found some kind of roadmap for Sansar (thanks to Luna Bliss): https://modemworld.me/2017/08/05/bjorn-and-widely-linden-discuss-sansar/ (at least someone from Sansar bosses did not live in ivory tower and hear about Minecraft! Maybe someday they will know that those "animals" are actually intelligent and call themselves "furries"! Oh my!)
    Seems that is their first growing point is avatars (easy to use interface - first that new user sees after opening Sansar client is character creation tool, right like in modern MMO games) - every aspect of avatars (sounds, mimics, animations, VR controllers support, shop for avatars and their accessories) are main focus of the project now it seems. All other stuff (like multiplayer building) promised to come later - with current pace they do that in 1-3 years and may end like this - for my own experience there was humble list of thing that was done in six months since February, but since July Sansar team roll out one improvement after another :). This topic on Second Life forum about Sansar user experience is also good read for anyone who is trying to make his own world a bit better - https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/409943-dont-visit-sansaryet/

    And some other *potentially* interesting observations:
    - Solid site design: simple and direct (SineSpace here is ... brrr, 3 similar looking site versions). Lists of the forums is awful, though. And posting pre-moderation/tiny image size - too...
    - Quantity in user created locations is enough to rise "Average Time In Sansar" to 2-5 hours for new user. This amount of creators doing maps for this project is result of the "Power of the Brand" (SL) + wide use of templates everywhere (whole levels/skyboxes/a lot of free/commercial models in shop to pick) + put a lot of money in "Creator challenge" (even I participated there with my map "City park").
    - Avatar creation process is also full of free template items and adds to "Average Time In Sansar" 5-10-20 minutes.
    - Without VR headset + controllers this is really boring project, with that expensive equipment - some additional fun is possible to squeeze with mini-games here and there, but real fun happens is only around professional streamers (here is the examples 1, 2 - thanks for Draxtor and Strawberry!) who put all free experience points to "Charisma" XD. I'm fully agree here with MOONRISE AZALEE - for typical desktop user Sansar getting old way faster than for VR user... That "level of positive unpredictability" is very low.
    - There is no smart measures to reduce download size of content-heavy locations (generic material system, no client-embedded common Creators resources, no MIP streaming, etc). But this problem occurs only first time you visiting location... I did not tested what will happens if author changed something minor and re-published his map - will it be downloaded in full size again or only updated minor things will be loaded from server.

    Now SineSpace has strong direct rival (among modern sandbox games and MMOs) - take care ^_= because even it has a lot of problems/limitations here and there it's rich, fancy and simple to use (except uploading models - it's pure hell now). If Sansar did not die because low monetization or overestimating amount of VR users with controllers XD.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  3. Lex4art

    Lex4art Member

    Here is my "a bit delayed" reply on this - it's up to SineSpace dev's of course but ... I just did not get it: Sansar need years of work & several millions of dollars to implement modern graphics/physics/nodes features; SineSpace can buy them that instant for less than 10K$ and ... just didn't do it because "this may cause problems in future compatibility". I will not use my typical sarcastic puns here, just straight to the first solution that comes to mind: how about creating a fast procedure that will be used to test only one thing from each asset to add: "Can we automatically(by server script?) mass remove this asset from users maps if needed in future without critical damage to maps/from most of the maps?". That is all that keeps SineSpace from having a lot of tasty extensions I guess. Moreover, it's better to have them in redundant amount (to cover bias of assets that Creators already bought for their Unity projects and want to use in SineSpace). Maybe you are already did that and ditch that idea a long ago - my ignorance in programming domain is not helping here...
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  4. Lex4art

    Lex4art Member

    And some more mumbling from me: this time about "Level of positive unpredictability" term (from there).
    Still like the idea - term may be clumsy and long, but it's pinpoint something major as I see it, and sounds more guiding compare to "the project has not enough 'fun'".

    But it can be even better!
    "Level of ease of creating positive unpredictability by end user" -.
    It's like KISS principle but LOEOCPUBEU :D or LECPUEU :D:D in this case. Better ideas for this term, anyone? :) Because saying something like "Our LECPUEU is falling! SOS to SineSpace emergency team!" is :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  5. Lex4art

    Lex4art Member

    That idea about "personal, adjustable homeplace for every user by default" is actually feels like one of the growing points for SineSpace, my respect here ^_^
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Adam

    Adam Developer Staff Member Moderator

    Hey Lex,

    Removing the item is straight forward - the problem comes with resold assets using those. Let's say you buy a house that the key features rely on an extension, then that extension breaks in a way we can't fix. Then we've got a lot of unhappy customers, and it's not technically the creators fault.

    We have been whitelisting a lot of assets - but our criteria does include a 10+ year support horizon, so we need to make sure the asset is something we can keep going ourselves if we need to. What would be useful from you (since you do know what you're wanting specifically), is a list of assets you'd like us to include - then we can see what we can do about getting the features encapsulated, rather than the raw implementation. (Features is preferable, as we can possibly swap out with other assets in the future...)
     
    Lex4art likes this.
  7. Adam

    Adam Developer Staff Member Moderator

    Hehe, thanks - that's a feature I'm actually pretty proud of. I suspect it'll go to the next level when we enable group homes & things as well (soon!)
     
    AshaSekayi and Lex4art like this.
  8. Moonrise Azalee

    Moonrise Azalee New Member

    @Lex4art - you say
    "Now SineSpace has strong direct rival"

    I disagree. As you also mention, Sansar is ultimately useless without the whole VRH etc, there is no real interaction. A person can make a pretty place and then it becomes nothing more than a walking simulator. Also, people I know who can not access Sansar easily at all due to the high demands required of a computer are able to access and explore in SineSpace and we do have a lot of beautiful amazing content here. I went to some places in Sansar that are little more than glorified cardboard cutouts on a screen, and the items in those 'experiences' are far to high 'something' its just far too much 'stuff' on a screen to even make it a useful experience for those with the headsets without getting horrible framerates and motion sickness.
     
  9. Lex4art

    Lex4art Member

    For me at present point both SineSpace & Sansar are "walking simulators", there is nothing to do after you're visited all interesting locations, they both has fundamental problems with low "Level of positive unpredictability" and they both fight for same creators and public audience (SineSpace more democratic for users with low-end hardware, yes, but for middle-end+ hardware users they are direct rivals).
    That is how I see it now.

    About graphics - I did understand some *potentially valuable* things after last Adam's post about that topic, but those ideas requires actual graphics/physics demo on Unity to properly explain my point of view... will do that later, if stars aligned properly ).
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  10. Moonrise Azalee

    Moonrise Azalee New Member

    -- again I disagree. In Sine.Space I can easily communicate with people , whether it be new folks, or friends etc. I can sit on furniture, dance, and basically interact much easier than in Sansar. Plus SineSpace doesn't freeze up and crash my computer. :)
     
    Lex4art likes this.
  11. Adam

    Adam Developer Staff Member Moderator

    I'm staying outta this one. ;)

    Lex: I saw you got a msg from our CS team checking up on the failed upload (they do that) - I told them I was handling your uploads directly. I'm seeing how far we need to relax the timeouts, but I have some slightly better news, I think I might have FLIF-Mip compression half-implemented, which should speed up processing times tremendously (no crunching!) and let us cut filesizes dramatically, and give us streaming (win/win/win!), it's a experimental feature, but hopefully I can roll it out soon.
     
    Lex4art likes this.
  12. Aribeth

    Aribeth New Member

    Comparing SineSpace and Sansar is like comparing a carat and a carrot - I've just been having one thing after another keep me from digging at things until now - only took me 10 months or so. Also, if I walk into something heavy in SineSpace I don't move it around as easy as a throw pillow, Sansar did not impress me much as all. Besides, I remember the early years of the Second Life Beta/live... it was pretty sparse then too. It takes time, and having Blue Mars and Cloud Party go how they did, the early adopters might be a little more wary now than they might have been.
     
    AshaSekayi likes this.
  13. Lex4art

    Lex4art Member

    Weird choice of words - I can't understand that does this means... -_-"
     
  14. Aribeth

    Aribeth New Member

    Its a wordplay, sorry. Carats and Carrots sound the same, but one is a food and one is a measurement for things like gold. Completely different things, basically. To me, Sansar and SineSpace are completely different things.
     
    Moonrise Azalee and Lex4art like this.
  15. 8-bit Biologist

    8-bit Biologist New Member

    My 2 cents as a noob here, but one that has been trying to use virtual worlds for education for a while - when you are not an experienced developer, Unity is very, very intimidating. It has multiple menus and submenus to navigate through if you are trying to put something together there. The idea of pre-built regions that I could choose and drop into without every going through Unity, is fantastic. And for customizing, allowing the purchase of assets from the in-world marketplace inter-phase that drop right in. Again, bypassing Unity. That would make this a lot less daunting for me.

    8-bit
     
  16. Adam

    Adam Developer Staff Member Moderator

    Hey 8-bit, what you're describing is our Floorplan editor, click the 'Home' button inworld to do that. :)

    We do need more furniture/building components added though - although I'm seeing more and more on creator at the moment. :)
     
  17. 8-bit Biologist

    8-bit Biologist New Member

    Fantastic! Sorry I missed that, I was trying to go through the Start Up information on the Wiki and it didn't mention it. Does that also allow for a new Space to be preloaded with some default terrain so I don't have to go through Unity?
     
  18. Adam

    Adam Developer Staff Member Moderator

    It does; we ship a region which has a house on it by default, but we were talking today at my office hours about this - getting some blank templates may be a good idea.
     
    8-bit Biologist likes this.
  19. 8-bit Biologist

    8-bit Biologist New Member

    That's good to hear. My focus is finding a platform to use in K-12 education and pushing it out to teachers. Most teachers are simply not going to go through Unity.
     

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